Would you keep imitators and Tincs together?

Discussion in 'Dart Frogs General' started by pcw_phoenix, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. afterdark

    afterdark Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,074
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Chatham, ON
    I hope for the sake of the frogs that that is not the case. One of main reasons the 'old geezers' frown on mixing is because they want to see the lines of frogs currently in the hobby well represented long into the future. This means as true to their natural counterparts as possible.

    Since you indicated you've had breeding 'success' in mixed tanks, I would be willing to bet that you have produced some hybrid darts. Have you sold or given away any offspring from your mixed tanks?
     
  2. Gabor

    Gabor Contributing Member

    Messages:
    396
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Windsor
    Hey GBallem!

    Well put! And keep posting!
     
  3. [JL]

    [JL] Member

    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    I think you are getting me all wrong here. Forums are horrible for people reading what they want to read into other peoples posts and then making such a big deal out of nothing. Example = GBallem's post above^ which is only instigating an argument and therefore warrants no reply from me. Arguments about hybrids should be left to dendroboard for the whiny Americans!

    I am not advocating that everyone produce hybrids and flood the market with mutts. This is completely ignorant and I believe that anyone who does this, knowingly or unknowingly, should be shot. I have zero tolerance for this. I do have hybrid and cross morph frogs in my collection which I have produced but I have never ever distributed any of these frogs outside of my possession. I wouldn't even consider selling hybrid or cross morph frogs which are described as such, to anybody. That is not an option for me as it goes against what I believe in. I do not want to be the doosh that is responsible for ruining well represented lines in the hobby.

    I am 100% for keeping captive lines as true as possible to those which occur in the wild (which is impossible by the way!!!). It seems that everyone thinks their pet frogs will be used for reintroduction into the wild should they go extinct. This is just plain silly! Your frogs and my frogs are useless for this purpose. There may be a few hobbyists who import wild caught frogs, and perhaps F1 offspring produced by these wild caught frogs would be acceptable to be released into the wild, but the vast majority of frogs in the hobby are line bred, selectively bred, inbred, etc. and are nothing more than mere pets.

    I don't see anything wrong with curious frog enthusiasts experimenting with their frogs as long as they do so responsibly. This happens more than you would think, it is just that people don't openly discuss it because they are afraid of getting their heads chewed off.
     
  4. Lance

    Lance Legendary Member

    Messages:
    1,142
    Likes Received:
    148
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Ardrossan Alberta ( outside Edmonton )
    Oh here comes another "witch hunt/ burn"...
     
  5. Drew

    Drew Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    774
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Burlington
    Just a reminder to keep it civil
     
  6. afterdark

    afterdark Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,074
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Chatham, ON
    My only concern is what happens to those hybrids if/when you get out of the hobby? Do you euthanize any hybrids before transferring your collection to someone else? Most people don't have the stomach to euthanize a frog for 'no reason'.

    I'm also wondering how you pull and separate any offspring. Any frog that is produced from a mixed tank must be considered a hybrid - even if it looks like it isn't.
     
  7. ouaouaron

    ouaouaron Member

    Messages:
    204
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Richelieu,Qc
    Je cherche un bon foyer pour mes cinq hybrides de ouaouaron/fantasticus- lowland, non sexables.
    Envoi par Canadapost express, livraison garantie en quelques jours d├ępendamment du facteur.
    Bernard.
     
  8. [JL]

    [JL] Member

    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    That is an excellent concern and it is something that I have indeed thought about. My amphibian collection consists of both live and dead animals. I preserve frogs in vials of ethanol after injecting them with ethanol. My dead frog collection consists of about 300+ specimens and my live frog collection consists of about 65 frogs (+ offspring).

    It is doubtful that I will ever get out of keeping frogs, especially since I have 2 partners that I have trained to take care of my frogs as well as I can. I can go on vacation for months at a time without having to worry about my frogs. In fact I am leaving next week for Peru. I am going to spend 3 weeks walking through the South American forests all by myself and then I am going on a senior citizens cruise ship down to Antarctica to see some whales provided the damn Japanese haven't harpooned them all.

    If I do get out of the hobby then I will simply kill off any and all hybrids/cross morphs and that will be the end of it. I am a wildlife biologist and I am a farmer so cutting the heads off of chickens, stabbing pigs, and walking around blasting farm cats with a shotgun is another day at the office for me. I find the best way for euthanizing a frog for preservation in vials is simply freezing them until they are dead and then preserving them. I used to use this Orajel method that I found online and man after watching what a frog goes through, I will never do that again. I would rather squish a frog in my hands than use Orajel. It is more humane.

    For the most part I destroy about 95% of the eggs I pull from mixed tanks. I have no desire to be producing mass amounts of hybrids and cross morphs. That is just ignorant. The only reason I have produced hybrids and cross morphs is to satisfy my own curiosity. I think that any true amphibian enthusiast who says they are not curious as to what hybrids and cross morphs look like is flat out lying.
     
  9. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    318
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Brantford, Ontario
    JL

    Baby Oragel has no alcohol in it and work's very well.

    Glenn
     
  10. sNApple

    sNApple Contributing Member

    Messages:
    408
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Richmond, BC
    anyone want to guess on what color you get when u mix a green pum with an orange pum?

    i know[​IMG]
     
  11. [JL]

    [JL] Member

    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Purple? That would be cool.

    I think purple is the one color not expressed in dendrobatids.

    If you mix blue black with campana auratus they result in slightly purplish-grey tinged froglets.
     
  12. Ron Jung

    Ron Jung Contributing Member

    Messages:
    964
    Likes Received:
    222
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Markham, Ontario
    I don't often post on Canadart anymore or in the last year and a half due to a big move and having to build a new frog room etc ect.... but I have to say a couple of things here.
    1.If you want to keep mixed tanks please don't collect or raise any eggs found. You might not introduce them into the trade but somehow they seem to find their way there somehow.

    2. JL you posted below:

    "If I do get out of the hobby then I will simply kill off any and all hybrids/cross morphs and that will be the end of it. I am a wildlife biologist and I am a farmer so cutting the heads off of chickens, stabbing pigs, and walking around blasting farm cats with a shotgun is another day at the office for me. I find the best way for euthanizing a frog for preservation in vials is simply freezing them until they are dead and then preserving them. I used to use this Orajel method that I found online and man after watching what a frog goes through, I will never do that again. I would rather squish a frog in my hands than use Orajel. It is more humane."

    Freezing is not a humane way to kill a frog. They die slowly and the brain is not the first thing to go so they feel pain as their tiny limbs begin to freeze. I talked to a vet who said that people are cruel who kill their Cham.'s by putting them in the freezer as they die slowly and painfully like people who get bad frost bite. The best way is take boiling hot water in a container and put the frog in it. It sounds cruel but think about it..... the frog will be dead before the brain can register the pain of the hot water. Death is in like 1 second so even if they feel pain it is only 1 second compared to how long before they freeze to death????

    I am not an old geezer but have been breeding frogs for 20 yrs. now before it was ever so popular and there are lots of opinions out there. We are all entitled to them and should keep frogs however we see fit as long as it doesn't affect their health and well being. We should not create crosses or mutts as somehow some could make it into the trade and contaminate true lines. Even if the person doesn't want to so lets say he/she has a son, daughter, wife and they happen to give some mutts away a simple thing that can happen espcially if you go away for a while and then the person who get them doesn't really care for frogs and then gives/sells them and bang they are out in the hobby.

    Well this is just my 2 cents worth.

    Good to be back.

    Ron Jung at RIANFOREST DESIGNS UNLTD.
     
    Blair D likes this.
  13. [JL]

    [JL] Member

    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Well I agree that freezing may not be the most humane way of killing things, but it works for me. I also kill mice for snake food by putting them in ziploc bags and then dropping them in the freezer. I have been meaning to get into using carbon dioxide as a killing agent but this is still in the works.

    Keep in mind that usually when I kill frogs the purpose is to preserve them in vials of ethanol. Boiling the frogs or using hot water wrecks the cells making them useless for the purpose of which they were killed for. The same problem can happen when freezing frogs if you freeze them for too long then the water in their cells freezes and the cells explode again making them useless for preservation. The key is to only freeze them for so long. Drowning frogs yields good results but you can just forget you read that.


    In any event, I have already been called a witch and a troll in this thread for simply sharing my own experiences and methods of keeping frogs. Just because I don't do things the way everyone THINKS things should be done does not make me a troll or a witch. There is always more than one way to do the same thing. What works for you, works for you, and what works for me, works for me. I will just keep to myself from now on. I am going on vacation for up to 3 months and so I would just like to wish everyone a happy holidays.
     
  14. Ron Jung

    Ron Jung Contributing Member

    Messages:
    964
    Likes Received:
    222
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Markham, Ontario
    I am not doing a witch hunt and agree with some of what you do. I only said boiling water is the most humane way. Obviously if you want to preserve the specimines than you have to do it your way. I only said that so other people who need to kill frogs do it the most humane way. You have to do what you have to do to get the results you need.

    Anyways enough of that have a great holiday and to everyone here:

    MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR

    hope Santa brings you the frogs you want. I know he did for me plus 2 or possibly more baby Man Creek Pum. froglets in the tank and possible other rare dart eggs just waiting to see if they are viable.

    Ron.

    PS. JL keep posting as this is a place to share your experiences. If I post there will be some who don't agree with all that I say. It is just a fact and don't take it personally. The more people that post and speak their mind the more this site will be used and we shouldn't be scared to say what we want just because it might offend someone elses way of thinking. As you said what works for you works for you and what works for me works for me. Keep on putting your 2 cents worth in and everyone else should or this will become a dead forum :( and we don't want that.
     
  15. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    318
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Brantford, Ontario

Social Sharing