Would you keep imitators and Tincs together?

Discussion in 'Dart Frogs General' started by pcw_phoenix, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. pcw_phoenix

    pcw_phoenix Member

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    Anyone know if i can keep these 2 different frogs together in one tank? i know the imitators like the broms and high places..and tincs are ground frogs...


    thanks
     
  2. -RPN-

    -RPN- Legendary Member

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    Sure you can keep them together if your preparred for the worst! Tincs will climb and imis will use leaf litter. One does not stay at certain elevations of its climate. I beleive frogs will thermoregulate them selves at the temp they desire. If the top of the tank is 80 they may seek temps of 72, this meaning they will go to the bottom or reverse they may go to the top to get the warmth.
    I found this with many of my imis and oophaga.

    In short I'd be the first to say "NO"...
     
  3. ouaouaron

    ouaouaron Member

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    Et si tu essayais, si tu faisais toi-mëme l'expérience...?
    Mathieu garde ensemble dans un grand terra entre autres des azus et des amazonicus sans problème.
    J'ai moi-même des hanelis et des imis varaderos ensembles sans problème...
    Bernard.
     
  4. -RPN-

    -RPN- Legendary Member

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    My other concern would be they are both Dendrobates. Could these two species successfully reproduce.
    A subject quickly frowned upon on many forums. No mixing.
     
  5. ouaouaron

    ouaouaron Member

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    Pensez-vous sérieusement qu' un tinctorius et un imitator puissent se croiser naturellement et se reproduire?
    Bernard.
     
  6. -RPN-

    -RPN- Legendary Member

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    Probablement pas. Cependant pourquoi risquer la santé des teh seperate deux espèces. Juste mes deux cents. J'ai wouldnt.
     
  7. Drew

    Drew Administrator Staff Member

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    No one has mentioned the size of the tank, it should pay a big factor.
     
  8. pete arrows

    pete arrows Contributing Member

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    no way, no matter what the tank size, in a few months time you will end up with dead tincs due to stress.
     
  9. treefrog

    treefrog Member

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    Hi everyone,
    Some species can be kept together in the same terrariums without problems. As such, I have 5 mixed species terrariums that have been running for up to 6 years now. Most species in the genus Ranitomeya are not aggressive and can be kept with genus Dendrobates or Ameraga/Epipedobates without problems....they seems to do not interact at all. I can often observed a Varadero imitator perched on the head of a azureus and none of the frogs seems to be bothered.
    Now, regarding hibridization, Dendroabates and Ranitomeya are pretty far away phyllogenetically and as such are very unlikely to inter-breed.....no cross genus have been reported as far as I know.
    I even have terrariums representing peruvian biotopes with different species in the genus Ranitomeya together such as reticulata and amazonica that live in sympatry near Iquito or reticulated imitator and variabilis witch are sympatric in the Cordillera Escalera, or even, stripped imitator, ventrimaculata and lowland fantastica sympatric near Yurimaguas. As long has you have line that come from these sympatric regions they should have most-likely developped pre-mating barrier to prevent hybridization in the wild.

    Now of course, the bigger the terrarium you have the better.
    I think, it is a subject more delicate than single species terrariums but I certainly think it is possible and worth it.
    Other peoples that have never tried should maybe keep it low...lots of incorrect informations are found on the internet and particularly in forums.

    All the best
    Math
    You
     
  10. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Hi Math

    How big are the tanks you keep them in?

    Could you upload some pics, and give us some more details on your tanks, and species in each?

    We don't have any mixed tanks, but it seems to be done in Europe more often than here. Picturing very large tanks but may be surprised...Curious is all.
     
  11. pete arrows

    pete arrows Contributing Member

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    I am speaking from personal experience. tank size was 100cmx50cmx50cm. I currently have two mixed species tanks that I have no problem with, but these are tanks with all frogs of one sex. In my 37 year experience in keeping and breeding darts, mixed species tanks are best left alone unless your intention is to have a large show tank with breeding the frogs not being a concern.
    Math, you state that R. reticulata and R. amazonica (which is actually not yet accepted, you should be using R. ventrimaculata) live together, which is true, but I do not think that they actually come into any meaningful contact in the wild as R. ventrimaculata is predominately a tree dwelling species, whereas R. reticulata is mainly ground dwelling. (Mark Pepper would be the person to ask regarding this as he has actually observed them in the wild).
     
  12. [JL]

    [JL] Member

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    Imis and tincs would likely not produce offspring, and if offspring were produced they would be infertile. Thus, there is no risk of "contaminating" genetic lines should these hybrids enter the hobby - they will simply die off in time. This is the same for auratus and tinctorius "crossbreeds", they are sterile. If anyone argues about infertile/sterile hybrids ruining the hobby they are truly foolish! Of course this is hard to determine because nobody knows what mixes produce sterile offspring, and what mixes produce fertile offspring, until it is experienced first hand! ;) The only issue in regards to genetic contamination comes from the crossing of morphs of a single species as these offspring are often fertile. Therefore, consideration of keeping imis and tincs in the same tank can largely ignore "crossbreeding".

    I personally very much enjoy mixed tanks, and as such about half of my tanks are mixed, with some of them as small as 10 gallons, and both species are often rather prolific. Perhaps more prolific than if each species was kept separately??? I don't know what a frog thinks, but I assume that if a frog is consistently producing good eggs and is always observed feeding like a champion then that frog is not very stressed from interactions with another species.

    The only genus of dart frogs that you will commonly encounter that I don't recommend mixing is Phyllobates as these frogs are aggressive. You will have dead frogs (personal experience, several attempts - never learned my lesson the first few times!). There is nothing more disheartening than dead frogs!
     
  13. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Examples?

    Tank sizes?

    Species mixed sucessfully?
     
  14. ouaouaron

    ouaouaron Member

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    J'ai eu l'occasion de visiter à deux reprises la forêt que possèdent Mark et Manuel à Iquitos. Pour préciser la possible cohabitation des amazonicus et des réticulatus, je dirais qu'effectivement les réticulatus se rencontrent généralement au sol dans les feuilles mortes et les amazos sur les troncs à hauteur d'homme, Comme je n'avais pas d'échelle je ne sais pas jusqu'à quelle hauteur!!!
    CEPENDANT les deux espèces doivent se reproduire. Pour cela: deux possibilités, les bromélias ou les bouteilles de plastique mises à leur disposition. Dans cette forêt, les bromélias sont à +- 1 à 2 mètres de hauteur. J'ai donc observé côte à côte, souvent à mois d'un mètre de distance, réticulatus et amazonicus.
    Bernard
     
  15. Drew

    Drew Administrator Staff Member

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    Vos observations sont tres interestant Bernard. avez vous des photo?
     
  16. [JL]

    [JL] Member

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    Well I will mention a few of my less controversial trials.

    auratus + tincs, 10 gallon, success
    auratus + azureus, 10 gallon, success
    auratus + azureus, 20 gallon, no success
    auratus + vents, 10 gallon, success
    leucs + tincs + auratus, 55+ gallon, success
    phyllobates + azureus, 20 gallon, no success
    phyllobates + auratus, 20 gallon, no success

    I tend to shuffle my frogs around from tank to tank rather frequently. I used to always think that the frogs would become stressed and not do very well because that is the commonly accepted conclusion about mixing species and so that is what I learned, but from my experience this most often is totally incorrect! Alot of the time it comes down to the temperament and age of the frogs in question, and the only real way to see if it will work is to try it for yourself and observe.

    If you look around on the internet, and in European sites, and in zoos!!!, you will see that many people keep mixed tanks with phenomenal success. I think it is mostly the static old geezers in the hobby who are resistant to change that frown upon mixing species. Just wait another 20-30 years when it is us young punks who are the mainstay in the hobby, things will be very very different. Then again in 20-30 years when todays educated youth are running the world, absolutely everything will be different.
     
  17. afterdark

    afterdark Administrator Staff Member

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    Hey JL,

    Can you explain what you mean by 'success' and 'no success'?
     
  18. GBallem

    GBallem Member

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    I generally dont post but I get really annoyed when people generalize and when they dont have good supporting evidence but choose to attempt to undermine other peoples opinions by simply saying that they are wrong or defaming them as a person. Sorry for this rant :p

    To start off with innacurate generalizations IMO it is wrong and rude to say that it is the "static old geezers" that are standing in the way of these mixed tanks since I am opposed to them as well and am only 21 years old. And there is are a lot of people opposed to them and it is improbable that they are ALL old. As to the educated hobbyists only being the young people, that is also an inaccurate generalization since many of the founders of the hobby who have 20 plus years of experienced and are much more "educated" in this field than some people with university degrees. It is to them that we owe much of the information that is available today and the general success of this hobby. The funny thing is that for a scientist to become "educated" in their field it takes years of research and observation which IMO is exactly what the "old geezers" have done. Not that it matters but I am currently completeing my bachelors of science with honours with a concentration in organisms and ecology and plan to go on and do my masters and PhD in this field.

    As to the examples of mixed tanks that you have posted I think that in the most part your examples, while potentially supportive and maybe even relevant, are out of context. In regards to the internet, you must have heard that you shouldnt believe everything you read on the internet since there is as much false information as true information and is almost entirely opinion based. In the case of the european vivariums for the most part they are HUGE and the mixed tanks are not used for breeding purposes but only for a showpiece. In Zoo's, again, they are not focusing on breeding but on showing the public a snapshot of the species in the minimal space or funding that they have access to and if you look at zoos that are focused on conserving the species they do NOT house multiple species together. Possibly most importantly not all zoos have success and many have troubles keeping their animals healthy and happy especially amphibians in these mixed species tanks. Finally in regards to the wild, which is what most people use to justify mixed tanks, the animals are not contained in a small area and forced to coexist most of the times. Multiple species may have overlapping territories but they also have very little interaction which is almost impossible in small tanks where they are forced to interact in order to survive. These conditions are not something we can accurately reproduce in the hobby.

    Therefore it is my opinion that mixing is not something that should be attempted by the by the beginning hobbyist. I also believe that for the most part the reasons that it is "frowned upon" are valid. Amphibians are facing an epidemic right now and are dying out all over the world and I think it is up to us as enthusiasts and hobbyists to maintain as accurate a representation of the species as we can and to maintain them in the most natural and beneficial habitats as possible. This is not because they will be released but because it may be one of the few ways that we can be able to see them and their natural forms and behaviours in our lifetime.

    I am not saying that you have not had "successful" experiences but again what is your definition of success? Is it that they all survive or that they reproduce? Ultimately that is the goal of all living organisms, to survive and reproduce in order to continue their species. Organisms are generally adaptable and so they may have adapted but it doesnt neccessarily mean that it is the best environment for them. Of course you will keep doing whatever you want to do but IMO you should have valid evidence to back up your arguments and try not to use generalizations, especially ones that are disrespectful to other people in this hobby. Without them there would be no hobby.

    Sorry for the gigantic rant!!! :">
     
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  19. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Hey GBallem

    You should post more often. ;)
     
  20. [JL]

    [JL] Member

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    Well I simply mean that by "success" I had reproduction occur and no deaths. By "no success" I mean I had dead frogs and no reproduction.
     

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