Update on regs in BC.

Discussion in 'Dart Frogs General' started by snakemaster, Apr 28, 2008.

  1. Dendromad

    Dendromad Contributing Member

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    Re: Controlled alien species

    Well that is true.
    However, as far as I'm aware none of the terribilis are legally allowed to be collected from the wild anymore (and thus should not be present in captivity)and those in captivity are captive bred animals and thus pose no threat to anyone as they never develop the toxicity.
     
  2. pete arrows

    pete arrows Contributing Member

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    Re: Controlled alien species

    Fish and Wildlife is evading the answer as to why captive bred phyllobates are banned. They are totally harmless. As far as I know, Columbia has not allowed the export of wild terribilis and bicolor for over 25 years, so wild caught ones do not even enter the equation. Who can I contact to push this point further?
    Peter
     
  3. Dendromad

    Dendromad Contributing Member

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    Re: Controlled alien species

    actually just looked into it and all Phyllobates are not legally allowed to be collected from the wild in Colombia at all:

    aurotaenia, bicolor and terribilis are all Colombian. Only lugubris and vittatus are found outside of Columbia. So none of the "banned" Phyllobates in captivity should be WC animals anyway or if they are are very long term captive (24 years+ seeing as the Decree came to force in 1985!), and thus should not pose any threat.
     
  4. Dendromad

    Dendromad Contributing Member

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    Re: Controlled alien species

    oh beat me too it Peter!!
     
  5. RyMel

    RyMel Member

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    Re: Controlled alien species

    Yeah, I got the same email response but I also asked about the grandfather clause here it is:


    Regarding your question about the grandfather clause, acceptable proof that you had a CAS on or before March 16, 2009 could include, but are not limited to, a receipt from a pet store, a letter from a professional veterinarian, an affidavit, etc.

    I hope this has helped to answer your questions and address your concerns. If you have any further enquiries, please do not hesitate to contact us or visit the CAS website at http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlifeactreview/cas/.




    Man, I hope they don't find out about my T-rex..
    [​IMG]
     
  6. k9dr

    k9dr Member

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    Re: Controlled alien species

    Hmm, maybe we should arrange a meet of BC darters. I can take down names, photos of your animals (for ID'ng purposes) and then keep them on record should their ever be a problem with MoE. Only problem is that I would have to charge an exam fee, so as to prove that it is a legal Vet/client relation, but that would be only the Brief exam Charge $15.
     
  7. snakemaster

    snakemaster Member

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    Re: Controlled alien species

    I think the onus of proof is upon the government ministry of environment to prove that the animal in question was NOT in the province before march 17 /09 to have a problem we do not live in communist BC. just yet but getting closer all the time.
    Below is the video of the big announcement at the aquarium.

    http://www.vancouversun.com/Life/Video+ ... ml?tab=VID
     
  8. snakemaster

    snakemaster Member

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    Re: (Banned frogs in BC) Controlled alien species

    Copied from BC Reptile Club Forum

    Hello to all Breeders and Snake Owners

    Just reporting on our meeting with the Ministry of Environment on the Exotic Species Ban in B.C. on April 9, 2009. The meeting was attended by the manager of environment, the administration committee, herpetologist and wildlife officers.

    Henry Piorun of A1pytons, Don Patterson of Pythons and Boas, David Chan of Exotic Serpents were present at the meeting and Dr. Burton who is a veterinarian specializing in exotic animals, was at the meeting through tele-conferencing, during the presentation to the Ministry of Environment.

    After the consultation, we have given them time to re-work the exotic ban of the boas and pythons. Our recommendation to the board was to ban the big 5 plus the Green and Yellow anaconda.

    At this point in time, all boas and pythons except the ball python is considered banned by this Act that they have announced.

    The board will take our ideas and try to re-work the ban so that we can continue to breed our boas and pythons, and if such boa or python reaches a length greater than 3 meters, then the owner of that boa or python would need to register that animal, but also continue to be able to breed the boa and python. We also have questioned their 3 meter rule and how they came up with this arbitrary number, all we got was basically blank stares and the only response was that if a snake was 3 meters in length, that it could harm someone. We agree to disagree on this point for now and have told them that we will take this up at a later date, after we see what they are willing to change within the Act.

    The other suggestion we made was if the Ministry of Environment decided to stick with a ban option, then they should ban the snakes based on their reputations and not on the basis of ignorance, prejudice or fear. For example all deaths in the past were committed by the big 5 pythons and the 2 anacondas. We recommended education not a ban.

    We were told that the government does not wish to regulate the reptile business, but would rather do a ban. In our opinion this is not good enough. The basis of this ban is to protect the public safety and stop the spread of disease, which does not exist. If there is to be any involvement of the government when it comes to the reptile trade, in our opinion it would be to set up regulations.

    If the government had done their due diligence and public consultation, they would know that there is no public safety issue as well as no threat of spreading any disease that would be any different than those of our common domestic animals, in fact, snakes only spread the disease of salmonella.

    The government’s mission statement with this Species Act was stated as a public safety issue as well as preventing the spread of disease.

    Neither one of the reasons given by the Ministry of Environment is valid and therefore should this case be taken to court, the Act would be considered null and void, in our opinion. The precedence for this case is in Windsor, Ont. The applicants for that case was; Xentel DM Incorporated, Outdoor Amusement Business Association, TZ Productions, and Garden Brothers. ( Stanley M. Makuch, Signe B. Leisk, Cassels Brock & Blackwell LLP ). The respondent to the case was The Corporation of the City of Windsor. ( Mark P. Nazarewich, Office of the City Solicitor, Solicitor for the Respondent ).

    In this case, the City was looking to place a ban on the business of Circus acts using live animals. The ban was based on public safety issues surrounding the animals and their well being. In ruling on this case, the Supreme Court of Ont. ruled that the municipality over stepped their powers by using special interest groups to base their decision of the ban, but did not do any research what so ever to either support or to dispute their claims of public safety. When questioned by the judge, a member of PETA could not give any evidence proving any of their claims. It also stipulated that had the municipality done their due diligence and a public consultation, they would have known that there is no public safety issue with these animals. The resource used in this case was the fatality rates of death or injury by these animals and the Insurance Board of Canada, which stipulated that there is no public safety risk with these animals and that when issuing insurance, they pay the normal fees of any commercial enterprise.

    At this juncture in time, the Ministry of Environment will not be able to do any work on this Act until after the election which is May 12, 2009. The writ will be dropped early next week. We will more than likely not hear back from them until sometime in mid June as to the actions they are willing to take.

    During this time, I will be in the process of researching the cost of litigation to challenge this Act as unlawful and decisions made were based on special interest groups, fear mongering and prejudice who cannot back up their assertions of public safety or the risk of spreading disease. They did not do a public consultation nor did they do their due diligence in this matter.

    For those who wish to join in the lawsuit and aid in raising funds for this case, please drop us a email at keepers@exoticserpents.com.

    I will be posting updates on our site at www.exoticserpents.com as to our progress and our meetings with the Ministry of Environment.

    The materials that we submitted to the Ministry is available in pdf format for download from www.exoticserpents.com, and www.a1pythons.com, we encourage all of you involved to download the file and send it to Ministry Penner’s office in protest of their Act that they have placed upon us. Also with the looming election just around the corner, contact your MLA’s and give them a copy of this report. A copy of the trial is also on the site for download and possibly you can send that along with the report that I had published for the Ministry.

    If there are any questions, please write me at keepers@exoticserpents.com. I look forward to hearing from pet owners as well as breeders of these beautiful animals.


    David Chan
    www.exoticserpents.com
    Phone: 604-277-8097

    Henry Piorun
    www.a1pythons.com
    Phone: 604-820-9324

    Don Patterson
    www.kingsnake.com/donpatterson
    Phone: 250-655-0706


    If we all come together in this maybe we can get something fair worked out.
    Please send lots of e-mails to barry.penner.mla@leg.bc.ca as well as the MOE.
     
  9. pete arrows

    pete arrows Contributing Member

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    Re: (Banned frogs in BC) Controlled alien species

    were the 3 phyllobates species discussed?
    Peter
     
  10. snakemaster

    snakemaster Member

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    Re: (Banned frogs in BC) Controlled alien species

    Well if this goes to court and i hope it will then the entire list will be reworked i hope to the piont that if the Gov. can not show actual danger from species " x " then it does not go on to the list.

    We will need all the help in research we can get to show why species "x" should not be on the list so maybe some of you guys can get together a panel to fight these regulations.
     
  11. snakemaster

    snakemaster Member

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    Permit application for controlled species

    This is the application form for the controlled alien species that you now need to fill out for each species you want to keep complete with a detailed safety plan to prevent escapes. ( safety plan what a joke ) for harmless species that could not survive if they escaped.

    http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/pasb/applicati ... permit.pdf

    Now if we were to make up the most retarted ridiculous safety plan for frogs they just might figure out they should not be listed.
    Example barbed or electric wire surrounding the enclosure.
     
  12. Brock

    Brock Contributing Member

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    Re: Permit application for controlled species

    Does 'Canadian Winter' count as an escape plan? :))
     
  13. Malli

    Malli Contributing Member

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    Re: Permit application for controlled species

    So, where is the list for whats controlled? (again :"> )

    What is a satisfactory prevention of escape? Anyone know?
     
  14. snakemaster

    snakemaster Member

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    Re: Permit application for controlled species

    SCHEDULE 1
    CONTROLLED ALIEN SPECIES
    Note: Species listed in square brackets are for descriptive purposes and should be used for
    convenience of reference only.
    Mammals
    Order Primate – [such as monkeys, gorillas and chimpanzees] except humans
    Order Proboscidae – [such as elephants]
    Family Canidae –[such as dingos, jackals and racoon-dogs] except:
    i) Alopex lagopus – [arctic fox]
    ii) Canis latrans – [coyote] that are native species
    iii) Canis lupus – [wolf] that are native species
    iv) Canis lupus familiarus – [domestic dog]
    v) Urocyon cinereoargenteus – [grey fox]
    vi) Vulpes macrotis – [kit fox]
    vii) Vulpes vulpes – [red fox]
    Family Giraffidae – [such as giraffes]
    Family Hippopotamidae – [such as hippopotami]
    Family Hyaenidae – [such as hyenas and aardwolves]
    Family Rhinocerotidae – [such as rhinoceroses]
    Family Ursidae – [bears] except:
    i) Ursus americanus – [black bear]
    ii) Ursus arctos – [grizzly bear]
    Sub-family Pantherinae – [such as big cats like lions, tigers and panthers]
    Species Acinonyx jubatus – [Cheetah]
    Species Bos frontalis – [Gaur]
    Species Lynx lynx – [Eurasian lynx]
    Species Lynx pardinus – [Iberian lynx]
    Species Syncerus caffer – [African buffalo]
    Birds
    Genus Casuarius [such as cassowaries]
    Amphibians
    Species Phyllobates aurotaenia – [kokoe poison arrow frog]
    Species Phyllobates bicolour – [two-toned poison arrow frog]
    Species Phyllobates terribilis – [golden poison arrow frog]
    Reptiles
    Order Crocodilia – [such as alligators, crocodiles and caimans]
    All species of the Family Boidae that can grow to be more than 3 metres in length when measured from the front of the
    snout to the tip of tail when the animal is fully extended – [such as some boa constrictors and anacondas]
    Family Crotalidae – [such as pit vipers] except Crotalus oreganus [western rattlesnake]
    Family Elapidae – [such as death adders, cobras, kraits and mambas]
    Family Helodermatidae – [such as gila monsters and beaded lizards]
    All species of the Family Pythonidae that can grow to be more than 3 metres in length when measured from the front of
    the snout to the tip of tail when the animal is fully extended – [such as some pythons]
    All species of the Family Varanidae that can grow to be more than 2 metres in length when measured from the front of the
    snout to the tip of tail – [such as Komodo dragons, crocodile monitors and water monitors]
    Family Viperidae [such as vipers]
    Sub-family Aparallactinae – [such as mole vipers]
    Sub-family Boiginae – [such as brown tree snake]
    Sub-family Hydrophiinae – [such as sea snakes]
    Sub-family Philodryas – [such as green racers]
    Genus Dispholidus - [such as boomslang snakes]
    Genus Thelotornis – [such as twig snakes]
     
  15. mystah

    mystah Legendary Member

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    Re: Permit application for controlled species

    Does this mean I have to register or get rid of my pet rhinoceros?
     
  16. ColinJ

    ColinJ Member

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    Re: (Banned frogs in BC) Controlled alien species

    Yes the three Phyllobates species were discussed. My friend was at the meeting and he presented the info that I had requested on an earlier post. Big thanks to all who replied and a hugh thanks to Marty, your info was great. Despite being presented with info and data showing cb specimens are nontoxic and are not exported from the country of origin, the respose was simply they will remain on the list due to the fact that wild specimens keep thier toxicity for some time and are indistiguishable from cb's and that we should be happy with the many other species that were left off the list. So much for facts and data.

    Colin
     
  17. Malli

    Malli Contributing Member

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    Re: (Banned frogs in BC) Controlled alien species

    This just reminds me of Breed Specific Legislation and dogs. In many areas, it starts with one breed, other dog breed owners think "great, that one bad breed is gone" (and IMO there are no "bad breeds"), and then people become more particular, and soon its any large strong breed, or any large breed; and then, you have Germany, who has banned over 30 breeds of dogs.

    In both cases its about responsible ownership and PROOVING it to the municipalities and general public.

    so then other Darts are "safe" and don't require permits and applications ? for now?
     
  18. snakemaster

    snakemaster Member

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    Re: (Banned frogs in BC) Controlled alien species

    For me i am trying to bug as many of the politicians that are at their grand opening of their campaign office and make this an election issue as these regulation restricts your rights and freedoms which are supposed to guaranteed under the charter of rights and freedoms. go to all the town hall political meetings you can raise the issue again and again.
    YOUR VOTE CANCELLS OUT THE MILLIONAIRES VOTE
     
  19. ColinJ

    ColinJ Member

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    Re: (Banned frogs in BC) Controlled alien species

    I got my e-mails mixed up, sorry Owen, it was your stuff my friend presented to the gov guys. It was great material, too bad they didn't use it to make an informed decision.
    Colin
     
  20. Shade71

    Shade71 Member

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    Re: (Banned frogs in BC) Controlled alien species

    No prob :)
    It's no big surprise anyway. All the answers I'm getting so far revolve around being unable to tell captive-bred from wild-caught.
    Where these mysterious wild-caught are coming from we're not sure.

    Owen.
     

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