Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivity

Discussion in 'Dart Frogs General' started by RangerElisa, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. RangerElisa

    RangerElisa Member

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    So help I need a link a article that states that certain darts are not toxic in captivity and that you can't feed them stuff to make them toxic again. Cause they are trying to say that oh well you can always feed them stuff to make them toxic again! The bylaw states is no venomous reptiles or amphibians that's it!
     
  2. PWall

    PWall Contributing Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    To feed them the cocktail of insects and invertebrates that they would need (and is currently unknown) to get them back to toxic levels not to mention the amount of stress on the frog to get it to excrete the toxicins and then having the toxicins in contact with an open wound to then only cause a slight irritation is highly impossible.

    For legislation and for BC which only states Terribilis and Bicolors are toxic in any levels please refer to the post (so all others lose and cannot get it back):

    Re: P. Terribilis banned in BC
    This is the reply I got for my inquiry...And for the record, our provincial club was not included in any of the decision making processes. We had no say, and it was a complete 'blind sweep', a lot of people will be losing tens of thousands of dollars they invested into breeding certain morphs of boas and pythons. It originally started out as a ban on herps that can invade British Columbia, such as red ear slider turtles, Italian wall lizards, etc etc...but some hooligans with the SPCA here got in on the decision making somehow..



    Hello Brock,



    Thank you for your email regarding the controlled alien species (CAS) regulation as it relates to the Genus Phyllobates. All three species of Phyllobates on the CAS list are the only species of poison dart frogs known to retain their toxicity for extended periods in captivity. They may lose their toxicity eventually, but exactly how and when this process takes place is not well characterized. Therefore in the interest of public safety, we need to assume that these frogs are dangerously toxic for at least a certain period. The Ministry of Environment has therefore taken the appropriate precautions by listing these three species as CAS. Most species of Dentrobatid frogs lose their toxicity in captivity relatively quickly which is why not all poison dart frogs are on the CAS list. This means there are potentially hundreds of species of Dendrobatid frogs that can be kept by frog pet owners.



    Like you, we are well aware of the global decline in amphibians and the efforts of zoos around the world to maintain populations of many critically endangered frogs. Our regulations do not limit the ability for zoos to continue their important conservation work. These organizations follow strict protocols to maintain genetic diversity and have strict hygiene protocols to prevent the transmission of pests and diseases between frogs from diverse regions of the world. It is important to emphasize that pet frogs should never be released into the wild anywhere in the world. The release of pet frogs or the capture and movement of wild frogs in BC violates the Wildlife Act.



    Thank you again for your email and I hope that we have addressed your concerns. If you have any further enquiries, please do not hesitate to contact us or visit the CAS website at Fish and Wildlife - Environment - Province of British Columbia.



    Best regards,



    Controlled Alien Species Team

    Fish and Wildlife Branch

    BC Ministry of Environment

    ControlledAlienSpecies@gov.bc.ca

    Ph. 250-387-9771

    Fax. 250-387-9568
     
  3. RangerElisa

    RangerElisa Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    See they are trying to say any dart frog is or could be if someone took the time they could make a bumblebee dart toxic any kind of dart they say cause there is the potential that they could eat something that makes them toxic....no! I need something that says like the tinks are not toxic and we couldn't make them that way to win this battle
     
  4. greenoasis1

    greenoasis1 Contributing Member

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  5. Dendromad

    Dendromad Contributing Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    Amphibians are poisonous not venomous, venom is injected by some means, fangs, sting etc..

    The Phyllobates toxicity just doesn't make much sense. As far as I'm aware Phyllobates terribilis for instance have not been exported from Colombia since 1985 (legally anyway) and the last shipment would have died by now, so all in captivity should be captive bred and thus have no toxicity (or very little) to lose.
     
  6. RangerElisa

    RangerElisa Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    Thanks everyone for all the info now I want to see the girl who has never owned a reptile fight this case now :)
    All you Saskatchewan people I'm working on it for you guys!
     
  7. MartyA

    MartyA Contributing Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    Thats the argument I used when fighting the BC ban. I noted that Phyllobates are CITES listed and referred them to the CITES database. In the end the reply I recieved was that a ban now would prevent future imports and therefore future incidents.

    I ended up accepting only 3 species of dart frog to be banned rather than all species which were originally proposed.
     
  8. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    The main point is that the bylaw says you can't keep venomous critters. It says nothing about poisonous. I would think Elisa's case is rock solid unless they want to rewrite the bylaw and that takes time.
     
  9. MartyA

    MartyA Contributing Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    A case and point that dart frogs can change their toxic profile is seen with the invasive D.auratus in Hawaii... Alkaloids are everywhere in nature, the term alkaloid encompasses a very large group of chemical compounds. Caffeine for instance is a common alkaloid, it is toxic in large doses but not nearly as toxic as other alkaloids such as the frog pumiliotoxins or batrachotoxins. Can a frog accumulate caffeine because it is an alkaloid?

    I dont think you can argue that a dart frog in north america feeding on mites or other invertebrates is equally as toxic as its relatives in central/south america. In the case of dart frog toxins, I would be interested in reading about any north american invertebrates which accumulates or produces pumiliotoxin, histrionicotoxin, batrachotoxin or other well documented central/south american frog alkaloid.

    I believe that dart frogs in north america can accumulate alkaloids from their diet, should their diet consist of mites. However until a study is published on the subject it is impossible to say that the dart frog is toxic.
     
  10. PWall

    PWall Contributing Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    what??

    If I understand MartyA correctly, he is saying that IF a frog's diet in NA consisted of mites and other insects they MIGHT become toxic.
    You are saying that until a study is done you think they MIGHT NOT be toxic.
    You do understand that Brown and Twomey as well as many others have shown frogs loose their toxicity while captive. This is a known fact.
    MartyA's example is hypothetical to prove a point (which I agree with~ surprise) but your point of view has no basis of published fact. You cannot prove that frogs MIGHT NOT be toxic as there many many reasons why they could not survive in NA (Hawaii being an exception), especially Canada as the climate and any parasites would/should prove fatal. Please show any studies that support your stand but if you are talking about captive frogs, the feeder cocktail you would need to give them so they MIGHT become toxic is well beyond the casual hobbyist. Flies, crickets and other feeders have been proven not enough to bring about toxins in the frogs. Terries and bicolors are exceptions as they still retain (small amounts of) toxins which clearly are not related to diet.

    There are many posts on many sites of discussion of toxins in captive frogs none of this is new news.
     
  11. Drew

    Drew Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    please keep this exchange of idea and opinions friendly.
     
  12. Lance

    Lance Legendary Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    *sets up lawn chair* B-)
     
  13. 31drew31

    31drew31 Contributing Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    Lawnchairs are only for use on dendroboard! Let's keep the need for those away hahah
     
  14. PWall

    PWall Contributing Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    Just so I have it for my reference, where is your experience?
    Do you site examples or papers?

    No, you have no idea what is being asked as many, many posts have proved what you said as wrong.

    You are trolling in a thread where someone has valid concerns and is asking for help, you are just trying to murk up an already cloudy area.

    My last post directed towards you, I do not feed the trolls.

    Sorry guys, no lawn chairs needed, shows over.
     
  15. Lance

    Lance Legendary Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    Dendroboard people = jackasses, enough said.

    Well I really don't want to get into this discussion because for a few of us who were here with the BC/AB ban. This topic is just another beating the already dead horse with a stick.
     
  16. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    Bologna :p

    There are plenty of cities that have almost cookie cutter bylaws. Mine reads almost identical to Elisa's and many others. Each individual location will have reasonable and unreasonable municipal officials to deal with. Most don't even know what a PDF is, but as soon as you say "Poison Darf frog" the alarms bells go off. I prefer to call them "Dart frogs" just so I don't get a million stupid questions.

    Keep going Elisa. All they need is an education. Be nice and show them some literature :)
     
  17. PWall

    PWall Contributing Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    This is what I was referring to, it is 100% certainty that CB frogs other then Terries and Bicolors have been proven to be nontoxic. No one to date has been able to make them toxic again under vivarium conditions.

    Those are your words and sorry but they are wrong. If you are talking about WC frogs (which is not the subject of the OP) then you are off topic.

    Finally,
    vs
    is a contradiction, not in agreement.

    And still you have shown nothing to prove your side of the argument.
    I have clearly read the posts, have you?
     
  18. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    I don't need too look it up, Jeremy and nothing is that cut and dry. Don't sit back and say Venomous = Poisonous and throw in the towel. I hate lawyer lingo. The City is going to hire lawyers over a few frogs? Highly unlikely. They are frogs. That's it. Plain and simple. Not a Lion, Tiger or Snake, a Frog. Look what Marty accomplished. Join the fight. I feel as if you are just playing Devils advocate here...

    Again, Elisa's bylaws are almost identical to ours and many others. Roll over and play dead? Not going to happen...
     
  19. brayden

    brayden Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    serenity now
     
  20. Scarloc

    Scarloc Contributing Member

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    Re: Trying to prove to my city darts aren't toxic in captivi

    If I remember correctly the key point for it to be venom is that it has to be injected in some way where as poison is classified by touching/eating/breathing it in. Hence why chemicals are poisonous not venomous. What is the exact law or was it further back and I missed it? Normally these laws are directed towards snakes/spiders and scorpions as some can be fatal to people.
     

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