Mixing species

Discussion in 'Dart Frogs General' started by frogfreak, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. pinkjello

    pinkjello Contributing Member

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    heres a good blurb for reading...

    Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs
    [​IMG]by Philsuma » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:22 pm
    “Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs for personal pleasure or participation in the Dart Frog Hobby Community.

    We need to start this discussion by realizing that it is not solely a matter of educating new hobbyists, when it comes to this issue. “Educating” implies that hobbyists are doing something wrong and need to be corrected, when in reality, they are just doing something that goes against someone else’s beliefs. This is large hobby and there is enough passion, interest and energy for all, provided we do not adversely affect things for future hobbyists down the road.

    We all need to provide good, truthful reasons for why we personally choose not to mix or breed different species or morphs. We must be civil in our attempts to persuade others with opposing viewpoints and realize that not everyone is going to agree and/or change their mind right away or possibly ever.

    The majority of the Dart Frog Hobby Community believes that mixing is bad for the hobby because it can lead to hybrid or cross morph frogs being produced and transferred to many other people and places. The reason we feel this is bad is because most Dart Frogs have a long life span and could enter and stay in the hobby - not labeled properly, for a long time. If mislabeled and questionable Dart Frogs circulate in the hobby, they can destroy attempts at trying to manage pure blood lines. The Hobby community realizes that its breeding efforts are unlikely be able to be used for species re-population in the event of extinction, but there are still valid reasons why we want to be able to maintain an accurate representation of what a certain species of dart frog looks and acts like, in nature. The more mixing, hybridization or even the threat or mention of it occurs, the more it will drive many hobbyists to seek to acquire wild caught stock. This definitely hurts conservation efforts. Many older and experienced hobbyists may even “shut their doors” and refuse to help or provide frogs to those seeking to create hybrids or mixed enclosures.

    Even though it has been shown that success with mixed species enclosures is achievable, newcomers to the hobby should still start out with a single species, in order to gain the experience that is essential to basic Dart Frog care before trying to attempt a mixed species enclosure. Simply put, when a second or third separate species is added to an enclosure, the chance of something going wrong is accelerated 2 fold. That is the main reason that we direct all new hobbyists to a single species enclosure and not a mixed one.

    If, however, you do decide to mix species or morphs, please take into consideration not creating hybrids and to use frogs that cannot breed with one another, like all males. Be prepared to cull any eggs that are produced. Research all the necessary information regarding mixed species enclosures well before attempting same (most information is found online in Forums) in order to make sure you have the best possible setup to be successful, and for the health of your frogs.

    Here are some answers to a few questions that inevitably get brought up anytime there is a "mixing" or "Hybrid" discussion:

    "I will cull every egg"....You won't find every egg and even froglets I never knew I had, pop up all the time in my vivs.

    "Then I will cull those froglets or keep them, but I won't breed them"....In time, you will be overrun with froglets and won't be able to keep every one. Killing small froglets is not an easy thing to do for most people, as well.

    "I will only transfer hybrid or crossed offspring to those hobbyists who specifically want then and they all will be informed as to what they are"....It is inevitable once someone gets bored/goes university/has children/moves house/passes away/needs money,then these frogs will have to go somewhere else. The easiest way to do this is to fail to disclose or even lie about what your frogs are (if hybrid). This is the core of the issue - the recirculation of unknown lineage animals at best, or at worst - the direct falsification or missrepresentation of certain dart frogs.

    And finally,as Corny and trite as this may sound : The Frogs can’t speak to us. They are truly at our mercy when it comes to housing and caring for them. We all need to consider what is best for them, and not just what we selfishly want and desire.
     
  2. pinkjello

    pinkjello Contributing Member

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    do you just google lotters book? cant find - do you have a link?
     
  3. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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  4. pinkjello

    pinkjello Contributing Member

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    Thx :)

    What do you think about the blurb I found above?
     
  5. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    What do you think about it? :p
     
  6. pinkjello

    pinkjello Contributing Member

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    I thought it was well presented considering the topic is very hot and can make people very uptight and angry.
     
  7. pete arrows

    pete arrows Contributing Member

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    I don't know where to start. There are so many misconceptions and falsehoods throughout this thread.
    1. I grew up in Europe and thus started in the hobby there. As stated in a previous post most dart frog keepers in Europe DO NOT have
    mixed tanks. Those people who say it is common there, I would like to know how many european frog keepers you have personnelly
    visited and seen mixed tanks. As regards to limited space in Europe; I have seen bigger collections in Europe than any I have seen
    here and that is including well known breeders in the U.S. Every house in Switzerland has a basement (by law you need to have a
    bomb shelter) and they have as long a history of keeping darts as Germany and Holland, in fact is was a swiss that bred pumilios
    for the first time and realized that they feed the tadpoles with their eggs.
    2. mixing species:
    a. keeping "ground dwellers" and "arboreal species" in the same tank. you have to remember that in the wild a so called "ground
    dweller" does not strictly stay on the ground but utilizes an area of between the ground and maybe up to 3 meters above the
    ground. Therefore, unless the enclosure for mixing is 4 to 5 meters tall you are not doing the frogs justice and compromising
    their wellbeing.
    i.e. years ago I kept a pair of D. tinctorius "New River" for years breeding successfully in a terrarium 100cm x 50cm x50cm.
    I was then given a single male R. imitator. the tank was heavily planted, lots of broms and hiding spaces and despite my
    better judgement (it was a single male, no female) I put it in with the pair. I kept a close eye, which was made easier in
    that the tank was in the living room, and thought that I would notice right away if anything was amiss as I had years
    of observation regarding the tinc. pair. Well, after a few weeks I noticed that the male tintorius did not seem "right"
    so I immediatly pulled the imitator out of the tank. It was already too late, the male tinc. slowly wasted away.
    these are two unrelated species that occur thousands of miles apart (Surinam/Guyana vs. Peru).
    b. keeping species from the same area together. O. pumilio, P. lugubris, D. auratus, C. nubicola etc. live together in parts
    of Panama, does not mean that they can be kept together in a tank. As stated in Ralf Heselhaus's book "Pfeilgiftfroesche"
    published in 1984, on page 12 he writes that: Zimmermann kept 3 O. pumilio together with 10 P. lugubris. One day he
    found a drown P. lugubris in the water container, later on another and another. He did not know what was going on and
    finally one day saw a male O. pumilio dive on top of a P. lugubris, pinned it to the ground and then put its head under
    the lugubris and pushed it into the water container where it landed on its back. Then the pumiio jumped on top of it
    and kicked the underside of the lugubris until it drowned.
    3. you can have numerous mixed species, the most common are the ones from the Dendrobates complex, which readily
    interbreed with each other. Also, O. histrionicus and O. lehmanni will interbreed as will E. anthonyi and E. tricolor.
    Most offspring are infertile, but those of histrionicus and lehmanni, anthonyi and tricolor are fertile.
     
  8. pete arrows

    pete arrows Contributing Member

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    I do agree with you that you can raise cannibalistic tadpoles together. I do, however, think that you have to do it responsibly.
    I read/heard many years ago that when raising tadpoles communally (cannibalistic or not), they will release inhibitors that
    stunt the growth of other tadpoles. So 15 years ago I decided to experiment for myself with tadpoles of P. terribilis and P. vittatus
    and also a few years later with D. auratus. I raised them single, two together, 3, 5, 10 up to 18 (the largest single clutch a vittatus
    laid). Also different container sizes. food, water temp. and composition remained the same. the larger the number of tadpoles
    raised together the larger the size discrepancy of the individual tadpoles and thus the froglets upon metamorphoses. Therefore,
    I concluded that in order to avoid ending up with some inferior frogs there is a limit to raising tads communally and would not
    sell the inferior froglets thus raised.
     

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