Mixing species

Discussion in 'Dart Frogs General' started by frogfreak, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    While I don't keep any mixed tanks, I often wonder why the subject is so taboo in North America? It's done plenty in Europe and some of their vivs are amazing! What makes it such a sensitive topic here?

    Myself, if a keeper is experienced and wants to give it a try, I say, go for it. If experienced, you will see issues before you will see deaths.

    Keeping in mind that the frogs can't crossbreed, of course.

    Open discussion welcome, but keep it civil please.
     
  2. afterdark

    afterdark Administrator Staff Member

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    I will admit that I have personally always wanted to try it but have been put off the by the negative stigma attached and just figured it wasn't worth the aggravation.
     
  3. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Hello, Mike!

    See, that's what I'm talking about. You have plenty of experience, would like to try it, yet you feel you will be "labeled" if you do it.

    It shouldn't be this way...
     
  4. h2osanity

    h2osanity Contributing Member

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    As a new hobbyist (1.5 years ) I always defer to the knowledgeable experts..when they disagree or argue I get confused...and DB, though it might be full of knowledge, isn't really newbie friendly or really friendly period-hence me being here...
     
  5. MarkB

    MarkB Member

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    The way I see it is this.

    Before darts, I kept many other reptiles(and still do) like snakes, lizards, turtles etc. If species do not naturally occur to cohabitate I don't believe they should be mixed.

    I make it simple on myself and ask myself one question. What's the benefit? There is no benefit. The only benefit is to the keeper.

    There is nothing more I would like rather than a 120g display with all types of darts but in my mind it is wrong and like I said does not benefit anything but myself, which I find selfish.
     
  6. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    I doubt we have any "experts" here. We're all still learning as we go. ;) Anyways, what do you mean when you say you get confused? Confused when they argue about mixing? They're just people's opinions, that's all. I have stated mine, but I'm not about to tell people what to do with their frogs.

    Agreed 100% :rolleyes:
     
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  7. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Hi Mark,

    But, if the frogs co-habitat and do fine together, what is the harm?
     
  8. Lumpy

    Lumpy Contributing Member

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    As a newbie I've asked the question. It's taboo... Noooooo!

    But thinking about it, How do these animals co-exist in the wild?

    How is mixing species in a tank any different than what can
    potentially happen in the wild?

    I understand the need to keep clean lines of breeding, limiting hybrids,
    but why such the negativity of something that can happen in the wild?

    Benefit? Keeping 1 vivarium with multiple beautiful species of frogs rather than
    18 individual vivariums. If they can co-exist in the wild, why limit how they exist
    in captivity?

    Just my newbie $.02

    P.S. How would aquariums ownership be if we all had 1 tank per species? ;-) Do you
    want one tank with 1 fish? or a natural community tank? Selfish? Naw I don't buy that.
     
  9. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Lumpy, most don't co-exist in the wild. Some do, but not many. I would need more help with which ones do and don't.

    We don't want to "limit hybrids" we don't want them at all.
     
  10. h2osanity

    h2osanity Contributing Member

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    I get it, as an admin on a fish forum I am always saying we are not experts but there is a lot of experience and knowledge to be found on the interwebs (;)) here or there and where else do we get solid info? If these opinions are varied then it comes down to personal judgement..yes no?
     
  11. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Yes. But, The hobby is still young and I would encourage people to think "outside the box" Much of what we read is voodoo and BS.

    When I first got into Darts, I was reading "water features are bad" "Tincs are best in pairs" "Tads cannibalize one another" I didn't sound "right" and I started experimenting. It lead me to having water features in all my vivs so I could tank raise tads and froglets. Having groups of Tincs that do well together. Better than many other groups. Many others are now tank raising too. Many of my findings, including tank raising were purely accidental. If we don't experiment, we don't learn, even if we make mistakes along the way.

    How many would object to a tank full of different male Tincs? I wouldn't... Not for me, but could be for many others and they would never dare post their display...

    Personally, I think we have a great group dynamic here and we should be able to discuss just about anything without confrontation.
     
  12. afterdark

    afterdark Administrator Staff Member

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    You're right and really the only thing that is stopping me is putting the proper research and planning into a mixed tank.

    I don't know much about the ranges of some of the larger frogs, but the paper on Ranitomeya by the dendrobates.org guys has some wicked maps. There are a number of thumbnail species that share habitat - vents and retics, benedicta and summersi, and of course imis and lots of the stuff they're imitating like sirensis or fants. The problem with that of course is that those frogs could, and probably would, create hybrids in a mixed tank.
    A lot of the tincs are from the Atlantic side of SA like Guiana, while the thumbs are on the Pacific side (Peru, Ecuador, etc). So I would imagine there would only be a very limited number of ways you could create a mixed viv with species that actually co-habitate.
     
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  13. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Mike, as far as Tincs go the populations are not close by. I know I'm always yapping about Tincs, but that's what I specialize in. :p

    I actually have a list of their locations (Latitude/longitude) but won't post it on an open forum.
     
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  14. Scarloc

    Scarloc Contributing Member

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    Most Tinc populations are far apart and a lot of the difference is just where they are located. In the wild most of these species would never interact. Also in the wild if there was a problem the frogs could move on to another location not just the other side of your 24-72" tank.

    On the other hand as long as the frogs needs are met and you are destroying the eggs/not mixing species that can interbreed I personally have no problem with it.
     
  15. Valkyrie

    Valkyrie Member

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    Since I suspect Glenn started this thread in response to my picture I wanted to give everyone here a different perspective perhaps....

    MarkB, you say that because the species I mix don't co-habitate in the wild then it shouldn't be done in captivity. Let me suggest a broader perspective. Ever think dogs and cats can't live in the same house?What about donkeys and horses? Sheep and goats? We mix species that don't normally live together all the time. Again, in my opinion the key is making sure you monitor your tank/house/herd and address any concerns that may arise.

    I was warned by the PDF expert I talked to before mixing species that I would be looked down on by some in the hobby. As Lumpy said in his post, it would be nice to have variety without having 18 tanks to do so. Maybe having variety without sacrificing an entire room to tanks isn't a good enough reason for some. It's one of my reasons though, and I have had excellent results.

    I keep dogs and cats in the same house, and even that requires considering species specific behaviour to avoid problems (eg-litterboxes in areas where the dogs can't go so the cats are never bothered by them when using box. Why? Because that is the type of thing that will make a cat start to pee outside the box).

    I am open to PM's too if anyone wants to message me privately.
     
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  16. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    Yes, it did and many others. But, the discussion is long overdue...
     
  17. Valkyrie

    Valkyrie Member

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    One could argue that any species in captivity, no matter how nice the setup, is still only a benefit to the keeper and therefore selfish....
     
  18. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    One step at a time. ;) My preference would be all same sex vivs if we're talking about frogs that can hybridize.
     
  19. frogfreak

    frogfreak Legendary Member

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    No need for Pm's here. I'd like to think we can discuss this openly. ;)
     
  20. Valkyrie

    Valkyrie Member

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    I never tried a tank of things that could hybridize because I have been burned before on knowing what gender of frog I have. I stick to one land based (Dendrobates) and one arboreal (Ranitomeya) to keep it simple and avoid any chance of hybrids
     

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