Legally selling , importing/exporting Frogs ?

Discussion in 'Dart Frogs General' started by Anonymous, Feb 16, 2006.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Hello , I was asked by a concerned friend where she might go if she felt the Dart frog she purchased was legally allowed into her country, or her province/state or region. Thats a good question if you are considering to breed or sell your supposed captive breed frogs . If you purchase your dart frog from a pet store or private breeder is it the resposibility of the seller to provide 1st a reciept , 2nd documents to prove this frog is a legal (cities ect ) frog ? And if the seller did not provide this or will not provide it where would this lady go , who does she contact. Really this is a good question for all reptile or amphibions :?: What are the laws here in canada , ontario ?
     
  2. Drew

    Drew Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    774
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Burlington
    im not sure i dont agree with Zoso but can you expect everyone to have cites for their frogs. I have two azureus which are breeding for me i do not have cites for does that mean i should not be able to sell them?
    Also their are many frogs in the states that are legal that we dont have just here because we have never bothered to bring them up. Shoudl we really have to go through all that red tape by acquiring cites to bring them up from the states. I'm emphasizing LEGAL frogs i dont mean historonicus or the such i mean more like glacs..

    On the other hand i do agree with accountability and that we should not purchase illegally import frogs from their native country. But if they have been imported legal once and are caputred breed what's the harm in by passing Red Tape
     
  3. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I believe all this person is wanting to know is if she chooses to breed and sell any frogs as a buisness , not hobbiest to hobbiest , but as an income be it full or part time. What are the legal rules, since they are listed with cities and breeding and sellig your cat or dog is not ? or at least not on the list yet. :roll:
     
  4. Lo)2enz0

    Lo)2enz0 Contributing Member

    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    calgary / AB
    alright, first of all breeding dart frogs is not a good choice for a career.

    as for cities, you do not need to do any papers if your selling within canada. when you start exporting thats when you have to do papers for every sale. This is why USA breeders will not ship up here unless the order is $1000usd or more. So you don't have to have papers at all to breed/ keep dart frogs.

    on a third note, not to be mean but its a hobby and a joy for these little guys and you should never look at keeping these little guys as a investment. If they breed, they breed but look at some owners of darts, 75% of there collection is not breeding.
     
  5. Ron Jung

    Ron Jung Contributing Member

    Messages:
    965
    Likes Received:
    222
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Markham, Ontario
    CITES ISSUES

    Ya so true Lorenzo. I am a breeder and have 25 diff. species and believe me I just make enough to cover the costs of my hobby. I don't make much.

    Now as for this Cites thing. For most of my frogs I have no Cites as I have done a lot of trading like with Mark for Basti's many many years ago and never got Cites. I have also traded and bought from petstores and traded with petstores again no Cites. As metioned before it only comes into play when you want to export out of Canada and really what do we have here that they would want in the US :lol: . They have way more than we will ever have.


    I think the only time to ask for Cites is like when Mark gets his Peru shipment in with the Lamasi, Fantasticus, Red Amazonicus etc.... Then seeing he is the importer I would ask him for Cites and make sure to get it as those frogs maybe wanted for new bloodlines in the US if someone wants to go through the trouble of shipping the offspring to the US.

    Also when ordering from people like Oliver Lucans and his Madagascar stuff again then ask for Cites as when these people bring stuff in they have to have Cites and there should be no problem for them to ship a copy with the animals.(if the animals are Cites of course).

    I guess I can't really say anymore than that on the subject excpet remember when ordering from people like Mark, Oliver and or who ever else is directly bringing frogs in from country of origin make sure they provide Cites so that we all know they were legal imports and not smuggled in frogs. This will stop smugglers from unloading their illegal frog on us if we ask for Cites from the people who bring them in.

    Best.
    Ron Jung at RAINFOREST DESIGNS UNLTD.
     
  6. Lackey

    Lackey Member

    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Aurora, Ontario
    Has anyone ever imported a frog from the US or know a breeder that is willing to ship and do the paper work? I think we could probably get a $1000.00 order together between all of us. If not, I would love to have some shipped to family in Buffalo and then legally bring them across.
     
  7. Lo)2enz0

    Lo)2enz0 Contributing Member

    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    calgary / AB
    to be honest with you, everything worth bringing over has a waiting list and mark can bring in alot of the thumbnails that are in high demand in the usa. So unless you just want to get some different lines, there is no point. Up here we have most of the dart, you just need to know where to look for them because most breeders don't have advertisments on the internet.

    to add onto the topic, i was about to start a thread about the lady i sold some frogs to for dirt cheap but decided it wasn't worth while. well no matter how nice you are to people they will always piss on you. i can't believe this lady wouldn't bump me to the front of her waiting list when i sold a group of adults frogs which started breeding for her 2 months after and i gave them to ger for less than i paid for the little guys. i just have a hatred for people out there that look at this hobby as a profit when it comes to breeding. all i wanted from these people was some frogs, and would have thought since i was nice to them in the beginning maybe they would have bumped me up to the start of there waiting list a year ago.
     
  8. Ron Jung

    Ron Jung Contributing Member

    Messages:
    965
    Likes Received:
    222
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Markham, Ontario
    Hey Lackey how can you have the frogs shipped to Buffalo and then go down there and legally bring them back if you don't have Cites??? If you had Cites then they could ship them right here to Pearson.

    As for frogs here in Canada there is a lot and that is why I posted in the Darts section "All memebers please read" in there I was asking all froggers here in Canada to post what frogs they had so we could find out who had what so when it came time to look for frogs we would at least know who had them but it seems out of the 188 members only like 7 have posted what they have.

    Come on people please let us know what is out there.

    Best.
    Ron Jung at RAINFOREST DESIGNS UNLTD.
     
  9. ouaouaron

    ouaouaron Member

    Messages:
    204
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Richelieu,Qc
  10. Lackey

    Lackey Member

    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Aurora, Ontario
    Legally Ron, this means I would get a CITES. From reading the process online, it doesn't seem very difficult for the frogs I am interested in. All I need is the export permit from the US. If you read my post again, I was also asking if anyone has ever done it.

    I know you have some frogs from the US Ron...you ever gone through and got a permit yourself or does the person who you get them from get it? Would love to hear peoples experience (if any) good and bad.
     
  11. Ron Jung

    Ron Jung Contributing Member

    Messages:
    965
    Likes Received:
    222
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Markham, Ontario
    Sean Stewart is one person that will do Cites to Canada and he takes care of getting that and the export permits. He has a min. amount I think like 1000 US or he won't even consider selling here. I know Web got frogs last summer there abouts from him with no problems. All you have to do is get them inspected when they come in and hope all the paperwork is in order or they can hold the frogs till it is in order and sometimes that means they end up dieing so you have to go to someone like Sean Stewart who has done this and knows what he is doing.

    I also wouldn't have them shipped to Buffalo and import them yourself as that is more paperwork as you would have to have yourself as the importer into Canada. Better to just have him ship directly here. I found out he charges 250 US to have them flown Delta Dash here to Canada and charges 50 US for packing and such.

    Best.
    Ron Jung at RAINFOREST DESIGNS UNLTD.
     
  12. treefrog

    treefrog Member

    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Montr?al
    Would'nt it be easier to order from Europe instead of US?
    I think it would be less costly and simple as you dont need to deal with US fish and wildlife.....and there are so much cool frog in Europe at good prices compare to US.
     
  13. Drew

    Drew Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    774
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Burlington
    that's a good point treefrog but longer shipping times and fears of chytridiomycosis have probably scared a few people off. Some of the really nice frogs dont have cites in europe either like mysteious, some pumillo morphs.
     
  14. Ron Jung

    Ron Jung Contributing Member

    Messages:
    965
    Likes Received:
    222
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Markham, Ontario
    For me and many other breeders Chytrid is the biggest concern as I know someone who got frogs from Europe Yellow Terribilis and within 1-2 weeks of them coming in they were all dead.

    If there are problems with a shipment it is also easier to try and get resolution from someone in the US than from Europe. In Europe you have to pay first as well and like in both cases we get shipped the frogs that don't get sold at the shows. We get the leftover. After all what can you do once you get them if you don't like the way they look "return them" I don't think so as you would need Cites to ship them back and try to get your money back just because they didn't look as nice as ones they see at the show. It is best to buy locally if you can and go over to the breeders place. See what he/she has hand pick your frogs and look at the setups there. Are they nice do the conditions look good and clean. These are all indicators of how the health of you frogs are from the conditions at the breeders.

    For frogs that you can't get here well best to get from the US as less problems all round.

    Best.
    Ron Jung at RAINFOREST DESIGNS UNLTD.
     
  15. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I laugh at the talk about bringing frogs over via Niagra falls route . Legend has it that,, there once was a along time ago,, a dart breeder in Buffalo N.Y. who use to bring frogs over the border without ANY paper work and just say they were some frogs a friend asked him to pick up , and customs just charged the duties and off he went. This was a few years back before most all of us were into this hobby.
    BUT there is possibly a few among us that know who they are, with rather large collections of maybe pumilio morphs and other "mouth watering " species that have no original legal paperwork.( a lot of jeckyl & hydes )So the story goes .
    Its said but greed and more likely Ignorance to the legalities of doing such acts are going to continue .
     
  16. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I agree Totally with Ron , Other forums have had postings about disaters from introducing frogs from europe , asia , even the USA into collections and losing frogs. Now of course if you do not keep these frogs in a totally seperate area for a long time you get what you get !!
    I personally prefer going forward, that I try to always only purchase captive breed frogs , born and breed right here In Canada. Of Course there is still the chance of a desease , ect coming along with that brand new frog . But I feel that is the safest route.
    Another big reason for support of C.B. frogs or any creature is that maybe it will slow down the want or need for wild caught or wild captive breed creatures.
    The hardest thing is when you see a price list from an exporter and they have , say for instance ,, Wild caught Mantellas at $12.00 or $15.00 each . Then you go looking locally or on the net and pet stores and maybe some breeders are selling captive breed for $59.99 or more or a bit less . How do we stop people from not taking the most economical purchase >>> wild caught ? This is all my own view point ,, I am going to certainly get trashed for this view , but WTF . And this is not directed at any , Pet store , Breeder , Member , Alien , Frog ect,,,,, :)
     

Social Sharing