Dart Frogs Illegal in Alberta

Discussion in 'Dart Frogs General' started by pinkjello, Dec 12, 2014.

  1. pinkjello

    pinkjello Contributing Member

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    I tried to translate..this is what I came up with...


    I do not understand all this seems very complicated to me ...
    But I understand one thing: why not send deputies to the excellent article proposed by the Understory site on the alleged toxicity of the poison frog and ranitomeyas ...
    It is not for me to do , these people speak English.
     
  2. Spidey88

    Spidey88 Member

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    Rest assured - people are at work trying to fix this situation as we speak. For several weeks, I have personally spent an average of roughly 3 to 4 hours a day writing letters and emails, making phone calls, investigating online, and doing general research. I'm not the only one, either. Various experts worldwide have been contacted, both by myself and Mark at UE, and we've got a huge backlog of testimonials and data to back up our position.

    While I agree that the change to the laws (in this specific context) was silly, the ESRD has been made aware of our position and is, thus far, willing to listen. I'm not going to mention the names of folks involved at F&W/ESRD, since we are only involved in the process by their good graces - angry letters and calls won't make us any friends, and we want to be able to develop a relationship of trust with these folks so that this sort of thing doesn't happen in the future.

    There's really not much I can report on at the moment beyond what's on the ERAS forums, but I will keep you all informed once things are resolved.
     
  3. greenoasis1

    greenoasis1 Contributing Member

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    [Quote = "bullfrog post: 60275, member 26"] I do not understand all this seems very complicated to me ...
    But I understand one thing: why not send deputies to the excellent article proposed by the Understory site on the alleged toxicity of the poison frog and ranitomeyas ...
    It is not for me to do, these people speak English.
    Bernard[/quote]

    Here's the article that Bernard is talking about from Jason L. Brown, Ph.D.(from Understory Enterprises Inc site)
    This has already been sent to the people that are behind the ban.

    http://www.understoryenterprises.com/toxicity-of-poison-dart-frogs

     
  4. Dendromad

    Dendromad Contributing Member

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  5. pinkjello

    pinkjello Contributing Member

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    This is great information. Thx for the update. :)
     
  6. Spidey88

    Spidey88 Member

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    Here's the article that Bernard is talking about from Jason L. Brown, Ph.D.(from Understory Enterprises Inc site)
    This has already been sent to the people that are behind the ban.

    http://www.understoryenterprises.com/toxicity-of-poison-dart-frogs

    [/quote]
    Jason wrote this at Mark P's request, after I notified him of the Alberta situation. Hopefully we'll have more letters like this coming in soon.
     
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  7. MartyA

    MartyA Contributing Member

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    Couple comments

    I remember when the law was coming into effect in BC and all dart frogs were on the list. After getting in contact with the biologist writing the law, a lot of progress was made and luckily (as well as unfortunately) he decided that Phyllobates should remain prohibited because of the possibility of future imports from Colombia.

    I believe the key in that battle was when Gord Redman (not sure if he's still around), got access to the biologists contact information so we could initiate conversation and send him published literature (which he eventually agreed upon).

    While the politicians making the laws are important, they rely on their 'experts in the field' to make the decisions.

    Unfortunately the Alberta law passed sometime ago, meaning it may be a lot harder to fight it.

    One final comment, it worried me when the BC law was coming out how people would make comparisons of our frogs being less dangerous than "". There's no sense throwing other exotics under the bus, chances are that rather than convince them that dart frogs are safe they will simply add "" to the list.

    It sounds like there are a lot of names fighting this law (which we didn't have in BC). Not that I stand up with them, but I am an academic (BSc in Chemistry/Biology and defending my Masters in Chemistry in a few weeks.), let me know if I can help.

    Also it would be good to get a petition started, it never hurts to show numbers.

    PS - Hard to believe that at the last TARAS show I attended none of the tables got into a legal mess.
     
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  8. Spidey88

    Spidey88 Member

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    Thanks for the input, Marty. We've tried to be careful thus far to make sure that we aren't poisoning the well for other exotics, but we've yet to have a real open discussion with the folks in charge of the situation. Hopefully we can remedy that soon.

    So - who was this Gordon Redman guy? An official with Fish and Wildlife or some other similar organization?
     
  9. Spidey88

    Spidey88 Member

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    Wait - never mind. Gord was with PIJAC, right? We have PIJAC helping us out with this as-is. Still - contacting him to find out who he talked to might be useful. If we can get folks from BC F&W to chime in with us they might get more attention than us (potentially viewed as a bunch of whackos who want to keep dangerous animals).
     
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  10. FwoGiZ

    FwoGiZ Contributing Member

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    uploadfromtaptalk1424990378864.png
    Not sure if you guys can read this...
     
  11. RCFA

    RCFA Member

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    wow...not sure what to say...so by this reasoning, painted frogs have been illegal in Alberta since 1987?
     
  12. H2-0

    H2-0 Moderator Staff Member

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    Wow.... Seems like they have no interest in working on a solution that involves people keeping their frogs.

    I hope those working hard to find a solution are able to get a positive outcome for everyone.
     
  13. MartyA

    MartyA Contributing Member

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    Gord was a fellow who was breeding snakes (originally in Alberta and then moved to BC (before the law came out)). I will look for his information (the conversations we had were 6 years ago).

    When the BC law came out it very closely followed the Alberta law system. Maybe the BC law can now be used to help influence the Alberta one.

    http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlifeactreview/cas/species.html
    (Link to the BC law, which is actually nicely presented)

    One thing of concern or possibly hope with the BC law is that after the law was passed several turtle species were listed (due to my own interests I remember soft shelled turtles being one of them). When I look at this law now it doesn't mention any turtle species and portrays itself as being last updated in 2009 (which cant be the case). In the Alberta scenario, the copies of the laws are dated meaning you can go back to 2012 and see that only Phyllobates were banned, here in BC we have no way of saving old 'time stamped copies' as personal records.

    As for the reply to FwoGiz, the statement that "Poison arrow frogs" have been controlled since 1987 is misleading. Yes, Phyllobates, one genus of poison arrow frogs, were controlled but all of the others were not.

    Too bad there isn't a lawyer among us, there are all sorts of poor translations occurring on the political end.
     
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  14. MartyA

    MartyA Contributing Member

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    One more comment, there are journal published papers which tell the time frame for dart frog toxicity when fed a non-alkaloid containing diet.

    Like I said, we need to find the Biologist who wrote the law, the politicians don't know anything but what they are told. (And like any long lasting politician they wont hang their neck out without a scapegoat readily available).

    (I will look through my papers and see what I can find to help).

    As a side, maybe request which article/author the law was based around. Its great to throw around facts but taken out of context even a well meaning statement (or result) can sound dangerous.
     
  15. greenoasis1

    greenoasis1 Contributing Member

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    One of the problems I see in Mr Kyle Fawcett's letter is that 99% of the dartfrogs kept in Canada are captive born,usually a few generations from the wild.
    Hardly any wild caught dartfrogs are shipped into Canada.
    It seems he understands that Captive born frogs are non poisonous ..but doesn't acknowledge that fact...just skips it all together.
    Why make a harmless non poisonous frog illegal?
     
  16. Lija

    Lija Member

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    The funny part in all that that they forgot to include mantellidae, which makes them legal. I wonder how would they explain that? That mantellas are ok, but others are not, because they are more dangerous, poisonous, whatever?
     
  17. mystah

    mystah Legendary Member

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    Well I certinally wouldn't be calling their hotline to see if your darts were ok by their standards
     
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  18. Spidey88

    Spidey88 Member

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    Yeah, this is completely wrong. I've had to address this statement with multiple people in the ESRD multiple times.
     
  19. Spidey88

    Spidey88 Member

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    Well, mantellas aren't closely related to dart frogs at all - so I don't see it as them "forgetting" them. Apples and oranges. I'd just assume not mention them, or any other specific amphibians (most newts, many toads, and some treefrogs are more toxic than dedrobatids, save for Phyllobates) if I can help it. We don't need other frogs getting thrown under a bus for no good reason.
     
  20. Spidey88

    Spidey88 Member

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    We were given reasons as to why the laws were changed (that were totally bunk, and can be refuted very thoroughly if we are given the proper opportunity to do so), but they wouldn't say who it was that they consulted. We'll have to see what turns up.
     

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