Breeding DF with other species

Discussion in 'Dart Frogs General' started by PKwan, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. PKwan

    PKwan Member

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    I wonder if it is possible to have in the same vivarium several DF species, or to mix DF with species such like dwarf chamelon or dwarf gecko.
     
  2. FwoGiZ

    FwoGiZ Contributing Member

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    You are venturing in the most delicate froghobby topic!

    To say it isn't possible or right to do so wouldn't be right...

    There are many variants to take into consideration. And there are also a certain % of risk that you absolutely can't get rid of no matter what you do so this is something to consider, obviously.

    Animals would need to have very similar needs in temp, humidity, substrat, etc etc etc...
    If it does happen to work, then you have to make sure they won't eat, kill, hurt, stress, or fight each others. It is almost impossible to predict the behavior of an animal that encounter a different one, specially when they're not from the same biotope (means from the same area, same plants, same cohabitant naturally).

    Then there is also the fact that any species that isn't used to another species, means their immune system and bacteria are different. Can't know for sure what will happen pathogens wise.. What I am saying is this is quite risky. If you have LOTSO of experience, you usally get pretty good at noticing earlier if something is wrong with your animal but for a beginner, it will be way too late when they notice...

    A particularity of the frog hobby, and trust me this is a wonderful and important thing, is that we keep frog lines pure. We don't wanna end up with snowy oreo pied carpet poison dart frog... eventually with only weird bastard frogs with dull color or no way to even know anything about the frog. It is already pretty hard to properly do taxonomy of frogs that if we were to mix species, we probably wouldn't be able to tell what is what!

    For those reasons, it is absolutely frowned upon to breed different species. MIxing them isn't a good idea either.
     
  3. brayden

    brayden Member

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    i have Red Eyed Tree Frogs in with Costa Rican Auratus. Been together for over a year. They dont bother each other - the only time they are even awake at the same time is in the morning. The Auratus are too large for the Red Eyes to go after. A photo below was from a few months ago.



    [​IMG]
     
  4. K-Dart

    K-Dart Member

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    Thats pretty cool, I've heard of people keeping auratus and pumilios from the same area together.
    I might do that with my red eyes and auratus too.

    What morph you have with the red eyes?
     
  5. PKwan

    PKwan Member

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    Thank you everybody (especially FwoGiz) for informations; do you know if hybridation between auratus and pumilios is possible even if it is not the same species.
    As far as vivarium is concerned, I thought that it could be good to optimize the living space with a species which prefers to stay on the botton and an another one much arboreal.
    An another point: FwoGiz, you spoke about line pure. Few days ago, I watched a TV program about the candadian arctic and the global warming that leads to hybridation between polar bears and brown bears. Some scientists think that hybridation allows to save genetic informations that may save polar bears...

    But as I am new in DF, I am going to follow your advices and keep my 3 azureus alone.
     
  6. K-Dart

    K-Dart Member

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    No, pumilio and auratus cannot interbreed.
    The idea behind all this is that pumilio, auratus and red eye tree frogs because they are encountered together in the wild can be housed together in captivity by experienced froggers.
    I wouldn't recommend trying this unless you've kept both species before and have enough experience keeping dart frogs.

    Besides, I'm not sure if Azureus is a good candidate for a mixed species tank especially being the big bully they usually are.
     
  7. brayden

    brayden Member

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    i didnt know there was morphs for Red Eye Tree Frogs. As for the tank, its an 18x18x24 ZooMed. its hard to make out with the pic but theres Cork logs and flats in the back so theres a large amount of hiding areas for the auratus - not that they ever hide, they climb everywhere.
     
  8. brayden

    brayden Member

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  9. FwoGiZ

    FwoGiZ Contributing Member

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    That is an awesome shot brayden!
    See, red eyed tree frogs and auratus lives together in the nature... along with pumilios.
    I don't think auratus and pums would be good in a 18x18x24 tho.. they'd need more space because they're VERY different frogs. Auratus can be pretty shy so you don't want em to start stressing out.
    It is a good mix with Red eyed tree frogs tho because they're two calm animals, and one is diurnal, the other nocturnal. One likes to stay on the ground, the other basically never goes on the ground.

    Pum can't hybridize with Auratus, else they would have in the nature ;)

    Hybridisation in itself isn't a bad thing... obviously the more you mix genes, the "better" it gets.. bodies will keep the best of each genes right? So yes, it does make the animal tougher in the end, but eventually, two species end up being one. Then hybridize again, you just lost 3-4 species for that just one weird looking dunno where it comes from tough frog?

    Like I said, one of the very nice thing in the frog hobby is the fact that when I see a white bellied, red back with black spots pumilio, I know it comes from Bastimentos therefore it is a O. pum bastimentos... not some random "designer" frog :p if we ever want to repopulate endangered species in the nature, keeping the lines pure will also help.

    If you hybridize weither by accident or intentionnally, please for the sake of conservation, do not EVER sell or even give the frogs to NO ONE... it sucks but just try and keep it until it dies or give it a fast painless death. Or better, do not hybridize! ;)

    Here are some links to consider if you still wanna go this route...
    http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/173258-multispecies-reference-page.html
     
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  10. PKwan

    PKwan Member

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    Your picture is so good. So you never have mist on windows....

    So FwoGIZ, are you against keeping different morphs of D. Tinctorius even if actually it is the one species ?
     
  11. K-Dart

    K-Dart Member

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    Different morphs of Tinctorius represent different populations with unique color patterns, they should be kept separate.
     
  12. Ron Jung

    Ron Jung Contributing Member

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    I keep dwarf gecko's with my BYH (brazilian yellowheads) got eggs from my gecko's already and they stay clear of the frogs. I have large bamboo for them to run and hide in if need be. Just make the tank viable for both species of animals you put in and make sure they are of similar size so 1 won't try and eat the other or bite its foot or leg. I only have 1 mixed tank all the rest are single species. Less stress for the frogs. Also if you mix darts with nocturnal animals they might disturb the frogs at night when they want to sleep. Just something to think about. Keep a close eye on both species and if you see any getting skinny need to seperate them as they are getting stressed.

    Ron.
     
  13. FwoGiZ

    FwoGiZ Contributing Member

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    What K-dart and Ron said!

    You could mix different morph but you'd have to kill the offsprings if it ever happens...

    I am mixing terribilis but I ll eventually have to seperate my orange black foot cause I wanna breed em:)

    I'll also try putting lined day gecko with em.. see how it goes. But the tank is huge (4x3x2ft) and I know what I am doing ;)

    It's really hard to do so tho... no offense but it seems maybe you are beginning in the hobby? If so i'd stay away from it for now but keep reading, keep monitoring and getting used to your animals and eventually you can make the move.
     
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  14. PKwan

    PKwan Member

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    No offense for me, it is good to have discussion, different opinions and points of view. I like Ron's argument that noctunarl species could disturb my dart frogs..
     
  15. pete arrows

    pete arrows Contributing Member

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    as mentioned a few times in the past, I keep dwarf gecko species with darts and mantellas successfully.
    read "mixing species" from Oct. 22, 1913 under this same section "darts" on page 4. don't know why people
    don't do a bit of research first, this topic as been discussed to death in the past on canadart and dendroboard.
     
  16. PKwan

    PKwan Member

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    Maybe because Oct. 22, 1913 is too old !!
    Thanks, i will have a look as soon as possible ...
     
  17. Ron Jung

    Ron Jung Contributing Member

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    I agree it has been discussed to death but on the same token things are slow here and even if stuff has been discussed sometimes someone asking the same question over again brings some life back here and gets people active again and interacting don't you agree???

    Just my 2 cents. :)

    Ron.
     
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  18. Drew

    Drew Administrator Staff Member

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    lol its a discussion board. Boards would die really quickly if the subject could only be brought up once.
     
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  19. Valkyrie

    Valkyrie Member

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    Hi agree Ron,
    As you can see by my avatar, I mix frogs BUT as another member pointed out it should be done only after you have experience keeping the various species separately. You cannot know if you have a problem until you know what normal and healthy looks like :)
    There are lots of considerations I took into account before mixing frogs and have been very successful with the choices I made (I determine success by the fact that in my mixed tanks, the species breed and raise tads in tanks. In my book frogs that breed are not stressed out). I took time to research the behaviours and environments of the species I wanted to mix and even picked individual frogs to try together based on the observations I made of those individuals.
    Now, almost 7 years later I maintain three mixed tanks and one tank that is not mixed. It allows me to keep a wider variety of species without needing to convert a whole room over to my hobby. I've included a pic of my 3 tank arrangement so you can see how they are the centerpiece in my living room. 3 tanks.jpg
     
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  20. highvoltagerob

    highvoltagerob Member

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    Interesting. I also believe that with proper research, experience and in a large tank that there are some combinations that can work. I don't think anyone should just toss a couple frogs together and cross their fingers. I like hearing people's experiences, good and bad.
    Valkyrie, will you share what you've tried?:)
     

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